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Postby Brother Timothy » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:46 am
D_TRUTH STATED: Bro Timothy stop being a groupie because anything against The Nation you run with it.


FIRST OF ALL BRUH, WHY DON'T YOU WATCH THE VIDEO BEFORE CALLING ME A GROUPIE. WHY DOES EVERYBODY WANT TO DISRESPECT, BROTHER TIMOTHY?

I TOO HAVE PAUL'S BOOK AND I ENJOYED A FEW OF HIS OTHER VIDEOS HE POSTED A FEW YEARS AGO. AND EVEN THOUGH I'M NOT A CARD CARRYING MEMBER OF THE NATION, I'VE ALWAYS BEEN DOWN WITH W.D. FARD. NOW HOW THE HELL IS THE INFORMATION PAUL PROVIDED GOING "AGAINST THE NATION"? WHATEVER THAT MEANS!!!

WATCH THE VIDEO FIRST BRUH AND THEN COME BACK TO THE MESSAGE BOARD AND WE WILL DISCUSS IT. AND TELL ME THE INFORMATION HE PROVIDES DOESN'T MAKE YOU FEEL DIFFERENTLY ABOUT WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TAUGHT REGARDING, W.D. FARD.
I'M ON A PLANE. YOU'RE ON A PLAIN. YOU'RE NOT ON MY LEVEL!!!
Postby RealBrother » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:00 am
GHETTOMESSIAH wrote:
RealBrother wrote:This Paul guy is not the first to come with such information..

My uncle has tapes of Wallace Deen Muhammad saying the exact same thing as Paul Guthrie.


PROVE IT REAL BROTHER


I can't prove it at this time because i don't have access to all of Wallace's paraphernalia.

I heard it though

Wallace said that Master Fard was from around Pakistan (Indus valley Civilization) Which was formley known as India prior to 1947. He said this more than once. I also recall him saying that Fard may have studied Janism.....

I don't have all of the information in front of me right now, but i remember my uncle and his friend were sort of arguing over this issue much like we do on this Forum today..
Postby Gloss~ » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:07 am
Brother Timothy wrote:
D_TRUTH STATED: Bro Timothy stop being a groupie because anything against The Nation you run with it.


WHY DOES EVERYBODY WANT TO DISRESPECT, BROTHER TIMOTHY?




Keith Washington already told you why...

Image

You make it EASY
Postby ephraim » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:46 am
There has been a claim for years that Fard was from many places but a lot times it was to was to try to discredit.In 1981, Pakistani scholar Zafar Ishaq Ansari researched Fard's life and claimed that Fard was identical with Muhammad Abdullah, a Pakistani Ahmadiyya .He was an adviser of Elijah Muhammad since the late 1950s and was the tutor of his son and successor Warith Deen Mohammed. After Elijah's death, Warith Deen appointed Abdullah imam of Mosque #77 in Oakland, California. The 26 November 1976 issue of the Nation of Islam journal Bilalian News reports Muhammad Abdullah's first khutbah at the mosque and shows a photo. Abdullah himself denied that he was Fard, saying "It is all right to say I am Fard Muhammad for Wallace [Warith] D. Muhammad. I taught him some lessons. But I am not the same person who taught Elijah Muhammad and I am not God. Then it was said he was from Shinka region of Afghanistan. In The Messenger: The Rise and Fall of Elijah Muhammad it said that he was from Pakistan therre is a temple named for Hazrat Lal Shahbaz Qalandar a sufi who was born in Marvand, Afghanistan.In the book he tries to say this where the name Shabazz came from.


All these claims is not what Paul is saying. Paul is saying the teachings have similarities to Buddhism and we should embrace some of those concepts for a deeper understanding.
Worship is polytheism because worship demands duality which is shirk (polytheism) because it establishes multiplicity of being. Meaning me and Allah are not one.
Postby innercircle » Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:44 am
ephraim wrote: The 26 November 1976 issue of the Nation of Islam journal Bilalian
That's funny that you said that Ephraim because IF i'm not mistaken, Didn't Elijah share that one would come after him that teachings is real close to mine, but stay away from it because its poison and it will be called BIALISM (or something to that effect) but my point is Elijah shared it... Do anyone recall that being shared??? However Ephraim, REALONE has told me about the video and what he has expressed with me about it (video), it seem very interesting...So I asked him (RealOne) then why does 'Ol Ephraim fight with me so hard about Farad and put this video out pertaining Farad....RealOne shared that's why he refer Ephraim as "KICKING AGAINST THE PRICKS" :lol: :lol: :lol: I'm like you Ephraim, I just like to give another prospective on something or give another way of looking at things....However, My Good Brother, I will add more time to my attention span, to see this video :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I will comment after I viewed it.....
"The Matrix is a SYSTEM, Blackman. That SYSTEM is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around. What do you see. Business men, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we, the fully wide awake Blackman are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that SYSTEM, and that makes them our ENEMY. You have to understand, most of these people are NOT READY to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the SYSTEM that they will FIGHT TO PROTECT IT"
Postby Anubis X » Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:50 am
D_TRUTH wrote:
Anubis X wrote:In I life and travels I have met some interesting and even celebrated people. I count Paul Guthrie among them. I met him when we both attended the same southern CA Mosque about 20 years ago.He was in the processing class at the time. A kind of quiet and introspective brother, one had the sense that he was a deep thinker. It was during this time that Paul was just finishing his book titled The Making of The Whiteman. He took Do for self to heart and self published him own book at Kinkos. A good brother, I wish him well in all him doings.


Did you meet him in Mosque #8 or Mosque #27? I know Paul from Mosque #8 back then he was a very quiet brother. I remember when he came out with The Making Of The Whiteman I still have that book. I also recall him arguing with a Brother in the Mosque because he said , he hated people saying The Teachings of The Honorable Elijah Muhammad because it was Master Farad Muhammad teachings. The brother giving the interview is a brother I was in the Mosque with in San Diego. He lives in Houston now and is not in The Nation anymore. He is a former Gang member that has his own talk show and wrote a book called The Tree Of Life. He gives Paul credit in the book and a few FOI he loved in Mosque #8. I'm going to watch the whole tape myself before I give my opinion on the matter. What is Paul beef with the Nation? Have Paul ever challege Bro Wesley to a debate? Bro Timothy stop being a groupie because anything against The Nation you run with it.



It was at Mosque #8 when bro Amos muhammad was the minister.
Postby RealBrother » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:21 pm
ephraim wrote:All these claims is not what Paul is saying. Paul is saying the teachings have similarities to Buddhism and we should embrace some of those concepts for a deeper understanding. [/b]


There's no such thing as Buddhism...Buddha taught Islam...Where do you think Buddah got his knowledge from ??

they used to try to pull the same $h!t with Prophet Muhammad, they was calling what Muhammad taught as Muhammadism...

The knowlege that Buddah was teaching was around thousands of years before he was born.
Postby aisha » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:56 pm
RealBrother wrote:
ephraim wrote:All these claims is not what Paul is saying. Paul is saying the teachings have similarities to Buddhism and we should embrace some of those concepts for a deeper understanding. [/b]


There's no such thing as Buddhism...Buddha taught Islam...Where do you think Buddah got his knowledge from ??

they used to try to pull the same $h!t with Prophet Muhammad, they was calling what Muhammad taught as Muhammadism...

The knowlege that Buddah was teaching was around thousands of years before he was born.


Beloveds, it is not so much the NAME that makes the religion of Buddhism what it is, but the fundamental beliefs, practice, rituals, etc. etc. that makes it what is.

If we do the research we will find that Buddhism is nothing but an offsping of Islam. The religion of Buddhism, as a matter of fact, began as an offspring of Islam in the country of India. The founder was Siddhartha Gautama, a man of Black lineage who lived 2,500 years ago. It is not easy to give an accurate historical account of the life of Gautama, since no biography was recorded until hundreds of years after his death. Before he was credited with being the originator of Buddhism, Gautama had actually studied Islam, and he got what we call Buddhism from Islam.

For example, here are some of the core beliefs and principles of Buddhism, which are also at the core of Islam:

1. Buddhism and Islam deals with a new way of life, which gives a being freedom from confusion and disillusionment.

2. Both the religions require practice and faith in self. Both of them have different methods of worship, but on the whole talks about similar facts.

3. Both religions believe that the eternal life depends on the works of the present life and is only applicable for those who follow the path whole heartedly.

4. Both believe that the universe is separate from God and has been created by Him.

5. Buddhism believes in humanity and love for all beings. Similarly, the most important aspect in Islam is humanity.

6. The Buddhist doctrine exhorts the Buddhists to follow the essence of Dhamma and condemn idol-worship. Likewise, Islam also imposes a taboo on idol-worship.

7. Buddhism opposes the evils of caste and creed and asserts the equality of all beings. Islam also stresses on the equality of individuals, thereby, abhorring caste and creed.

8. Buddhism adopted terms from Islam, however, those terms carry completely similar meanings.

Buddhism may have certain refinements that makes it what it is today, but at its core, it is the same as Islam.
Postby aisha » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:22 pm
RealBrother wrote:
GHETTOMESSIAH wrote:
RealBrother wrote:This Paul guy is not the first to come with such information..

My uncle has tapes of Wallace Deen Muhammad saying the exact same thing as Paul Guthrie.


PROVE IT REAL BROTHER


I can't prove it at this time because i don't have access to all of Wallace's paraphernalia.

I heard it though

Wallace said that Master Fard was from around Pakistan (Indus valley Civilization) Which was formley known as India prior to 1947. He said this more than once. I also recall him saying that Fard may have studied Janism


I've heard that before too from one of Silas Muhammmad's followers.

I also heard claims that MFM was actually born in New Zealand in 1893...

Then another claim he was born in Portland, Oregon, and that his parents were from Hawaii (and not from Mecca)...

Then another claim he was born in Afghanistan....

I think I've heard more rumors about M.F.M. not being born in Mecca than I've heard about Obama not being born in the U.S. :shock:
Postby ephraim » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:48 pm
Brother Innercircle I am not giving you a hard time and most surely don't view you and Realone as pricks to kick against . :lol: :lol: :lol: Despite the back and forth I see you both as brothers, maybe realllly old brothers :lol: :lol: but brothers indeed.If I quote my big brother Min. Hakim.....Allah does not use no lame sheep.
Out the lamb's mouth proceeded great words that the enemy couldn't stand. Then, all of the people rose up, that were blind, deaf, and dumb to the understanding of the symbolic Lamb… Why such one is called a lamb further in the Revelation is because he's the first that is born to bring about a new civilization and he's the first of that new civilization.”


My point being when quote Elijah words just make sure we quote him right and we disagree with some aspect of his teaching, express your view but don't try to superimpose your view on top of his. He said Allah is Fard not Allah is in Fard that is a big difference.
Worship is polytheism because worship demands duality which is shirk (polytheism) because it establishes multiplicity of being. Meaning me and Allah are not one.
Postby innercircle » Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:12 pm
Superimpose: Place or lay (one thing) over another, typically so that both are still evident However, i will agree that Elijah did say that Farad was ALLAH and I am going to Agree in this manner, since that's what Elijah said that's what it is to HIM (Elijah)....
ephraim wrote:maybe realllly old brothers
Hey, hey, hey watch it sucker (Esther on Sanford and Son) :lol: :lol: :lol:
"The Matrix is a SYSTEM, Blackman. That SYSTEM is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around. What do you see. Business men, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we, the fully wide awake Blackman are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that SYSTEM, and that makes them our ENEMY. You have to understand, most of these people are NOT READY to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the SYSTEM that they will FIGHT TO PROTECT IT"
Postby REALONE » Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:07 am
OK, I have viewed the video about 3 times and even researched a few things the Brother shared. We went into this before on the post "Master Fard Muhammad a Buddhist?" http://farrakhanfactor.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=40033&start=0. From what I have gathered is that Master Fard Muhammad teachings had their roots in India. The teachings he gave his Student Elijah Muhammad was under the cloak of the name Islam which anyone that would look at it and call it like it is knows good and well that what the NOI teaches is not The Religion of Islam that the Prophet Muhammad received 1400 years ago. I repeat...14OO HUNDRED YEARS AGO!!!!!

Now the ONLY way one can truthfully say that Islam predates Buddhism and all other Religions is IF we go by the definition that is given in Problem Number 13...which states that ISLAM is MATH which origins or beginnings are untraceable! Other than that face it the NOI as well as the Moorish Science Temple practiced a religion that was a combination of other religions and or ideas including FREEMASONRY.

Now back to my assessment....Brother Paul Gunthrie presented too many traceable facts to ignore such as:

The name Mecca which was referring to Mleccha and being called very near correct.
Pelan and Pelan Kaneh,
Baby G meaning Bhabhi Ji being traced to mean Sister In Law or honorable sister in-law being that MFM referred to us as his uncle.
The Caste system, the distances to the Caucasus Mountains and the swimming distance, the name Buddha meaning Wide Awake etc... Just to many Dam coincidences to just ignore. He even gave a break down on the Indian deportation act that was going on back then which gives justifiable reasons why MFM moved the way he moved and taught the way he taught. He gave Elijah Lesson C-1 and perhaps if he would have exposed English Lesson C-2 it would have put him in a danger of being deported. Y'all know some Negro would have snitched, no different than today.

Now one must also remember that Elijah Muhammad only had a 3rd (some say 4th) grade education and no doubt, he did an amazing job with the information that was taught to him. After I watched the video I must say that I have a different outlook and respect for Master Fard Muhammad. It was and is up to each individual to become a awaken person if that's the path they choose.

Again thanks for the video Ephraim as it really shown light in areas of obscurity. Sure there are still questions however just thinking about what was shared fills in a lot of gaps.


The REALONE


Oh and Ephraim speaking of old, I bet you look older than me :lol: Current Picture for Picture( as an avatar) and lets see :shock: :lol: :lol:
Never argue with an idiot; he will bring you down to his level and win from experience.
Postby brotherman » Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:12 am
I think the evidence presented by Guthrie, whatever his motivations, are quite compelling.

If I try to look at this as objectively as possible, I have the following observations:

1) W.F. Muhammad could have been born in Mecca, Arabia, and later lived in India
2) A birth record would quickly put to end, all speculation regarding his place of birth and the names of his parents. Does one exist?
3) I find the "babi ji" very interesting, since frankly, I cannot imagine ANYONE being literally named, such. If anything, taking the literal spelling, "Baby Gee" sounds more like a modern-day Nicca-Chick moniker
4) The first point in NO way, denotes that he's God
5) Looking at the "official" photo, he does not appear to look like the stereotypical Indian; he seems to be too light, even though I have met Indians who were practically white. They apparently come from a certain region, I believe the southern part
6) Perhaps the reason for his using the "Ahmadiyyah" Qur'an, was due to their popularity in India, plus the fact that they tended to be more actively engaged in worldwide Dawah. We must remember though, the "official" photo has him with a Yusuf Ali translation
Learn and tell the truth, from the cradle to the grave!
Postby abdul_qadr » Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:13 am
The brother makes a pretty compelling argument, but I don't buy it 100%. There are still some other issues needing to be worked out. He relegates the whole Arab identity of Fard to a "neccesary perception". This could be extended to Fard's teachings too, which would mean that Fard taught Buddhism cloaked in Islam to evade suspicion that he was Indian and thus deported from the country. Not only would I find such deception un-befitting of one claiming to represent the righteous, but it raises a bigger question of why teach Buddhism under the guise of Islam in the first place?

No doubt there are closet Christians, Buddhists, hybrids, etc. in Islam, but this is usually in a situation where Islam, as a religion, has saturated a society or when one is part of a social network or community where if others knew one's true views they run the risk of community sanctions.

Fard was in an open terrain, unfamiliar with Eastern perspectives on religion. He had no reason to start out on the wrong foot by presenting an Islamic shell with a Buddhist core. He could have just as easily have been outright Buddhist or outright Muslim.

While I can agree that Fard was probably of Indian origin and culture, I think Mr. Gutherie is taking an extra step to place Fard totally within a Buddhist framework.

Why doesn't he simply admit the obvious if he is placing Fard's birthplace to Pakistan? If Fard is from Pakistan and Pakistan is India, and India has several thousands year old traditions of Buddhism and related ideologies, then why wouldn't certain perspectives on Islam not have been shaped by the natural environment?

If you are born in a Christian tradition, culture, and society and convert to Islam, then you carry your tradition, culture, and society with you and filter it through Islam.

Therefore, if Fard was indeed from Pakistan, then he was probably born into a Muslim family, which is part of a religiously pluralistic society.

Fard could easlily claim that Islam is the truth, while using evidences from many different traditions to validate the main point that Islam is the truth.

He might, for instance, find points in Buddhism that prove the reality of Islam.

Islam, after all, is the most egalitarian of the major religions, admitting there is a central perenial message at its core that has been expounded by the divine personalities throughout the ages.

He might have looked at his own indigenous traditions and tried to link them into Islam and presented them as Islam.

This is a major point because it means that he would've held Islam in the highest consideration even though his views were outside the box of "orthodox" Islam.

This is one reason, among many other reasons I wont go into, that I believe Mr. Gutherie is taking an extra step, if you will, to almost uncompromisingly anchor Fard in Buddhism.
Postby SOUTHERNMIND » Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:07 pm
Bro. Guthrie did a hell of a job showing the connection between Master Fard Muhammad and India.
"JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN, DOES IT MEAN YOU SHOULD?"
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